Verging on poor build standards

A Quote for £3.5k on Potential Roof Repairs Triggers a Roof Inspection

Failed cement roof verges and undercloak
Failed roof verges are a common problem

We were recently called to a property in Stoke on Trent after a client was quoted £3.5k for substantial roof repairs relating to roof verge failure. This is quite a chunk of money considering that the roof was on a property built in the mid 90’s; surely we can expect a new roof to last longer than 20 years can’t we?

What we found on attending was fairly  representative of the issues we find when inspecting fairly modern roofing installations.

We found substantial failure of the cement verge fillets and resultant moisture damage to both the cement board undercloak and the tannelised roof batten ends.

Missing undercloak and wet rot to batten ends
Missing undercloak and wet rot to batten ends

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unnecessary Recommendations.

We understand that the roofer had suggested works to replace the sarking membrane but since water ingress by wind driven rain or otherwise, had not been a problem then this was clearly an unnecessary recommendation.  Wind driven rain tends to only affect shallow pitch roofing and since  this roof pitch was circa 45 degrees then we saw no need to spend money addressing a problem that didn’t exist.

Defects

On inspecting the roof from a ladder we noted a number of key defects:

  1. Cracking, failure and close of cement verge fillets
  2. Wet rot to the roof batten ends
  3. Damaged and missing cement board undercloak
  4. Sarking membrane not draped into gutter and no alternative eaves flashing detail.

Failure of roof verges is incredibly common and often stems from two underlying problems:

  1. The mortar does not contain the minimum 30% required sharp sand.
  2. The verge tiles have not been bedded on the mortar in one operation.
Eaves flashing only visible in limited areas
Eaves flashing only visible in limited areas

It is a mistake to try and point verges after the tiles are already in place and given the depth of remaining cement verge fillets, we feel that this is precisely what happened. Failed verge fillets are top of the NHBC’s hit list because it is one of their most commonly reported defects on relatively new build properties. They also commonly report a failure to add sharp sand to the roof mortar mix.

Thinking the problem through logically, if the cement verges have failed then can we expect similar problems with a failure to ridge tile mortar beds? In almost all cases, the answer is yes… if they failed to add sharp and to the verge mortar then why should we expect to see it under the ridge tiles! A shot with a zoom camera confirmed evidence of failure to the mortar bed joints.

Failed cement mortar bed
Failed cement mortar bed

You may not know that the fixing requirement has changed for roof ridge tiles under BS5534 and it is no longer allowable for ridge tiles to be simply bedded on mortar; they must also be mechanically fixed now so the repair specification we produced covered this point. The repair specification included for stripping off the large format interlocking concrete tiles at the verges, renewing the fibre cement undercloak and cutting out and replacing tantalised roof batten ends affected by wet rot. Critically, the mortar mix was correctly specified and it was further detailed that verge tiles should be replaced on a fresh bed of mortar and nailed in one operation. Similarly it was specified that ridge tiles should be re-bedded on the correct mortar mix and mechanically fixed to the ridge. We would substantially extend the life of this critical roof detail if roofers understood the critical importance of adding sharp sand to their mortar mix.

Roof verge technical detail
Roof verge technical detail

 

 

25 responses to “Verging on poor build standards”

  1. Tom avatar
    Tom

    Hi, would cement board fillet undercloaks contain asbestos? House was
    Built in 1995

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Highly unlikely Tom, but Chrysotile was used up until about 2000, You have to assume that any house built before that date may contain some. If it does, it’s very low risk, so long as you don’t drill or sand it.

  2. Tom avatar
    Tom

    Did the cement undercloak on this photo and page contain asbestos ?

    1. Luke avatar
      Luke

      I’ve undertaken sampling of properties built in the mid-late 90s and some of these fillet undercloaks have contained asbestos. As Joe says you should always presume it is present until it is tested.

      1. Joe Malone avatar
        Joe Malone

        Thanks for confirming that Luke.

        Regards. Joe Malone

      2. Tom avatar
        Tom

        Is there any way to tell visually or any clues if it’s asbestos or not? Mine has turned white over a short space of time, almost to the point you can barely see the cement. I contacted an asbestos surveyor and he said its not the normal characteristics of an asbestos undercloak?

  3. Robert Evans avatar
    Robert Evans

    I’m having UPVC roofline fitted in place of the old wood from when the house was built in 1991. I’ve noticed that some of the undercloak has dropped down away from the cement and/or has come loose and is now no longer flush with the end of the verge. Is this the fault of the fitters? Is it something to be concerned about?

    Thanks, Rob

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi Rob,

      If it’s the fibre cement verge boards then I doubt its really the fitters fault. Hammering may have worked the boards loose, but then they were probably never properly mechanically fixed anyway.

      Regards

      Joe

      1. Robert Evans avatar
        Robert Evans

        Thanks Joe

        They’ve put them back now so they’re flush. There’s still a small gap between some of the undercloak and the bottom of the cement.

        Rob

  4. Tom avatar
    Tom

    The undercloaks have turned white and I can barely see what’s left of the cement. Is this what Asbestos cement looks like?

  5. SHD avatar
    SHD

    Joe,
    Thanks for this useful article and the mention of the importance of 30% sharp sand
    That said, as a DIY’er, i’m still confused as to what ratio should be used and i have seen 4:1, 3:1:1, using plasterers sand etc etc

    Can you confirm what you believe to be the correct ratio of building sand / sharp sand / cement please ?
    Also, your view on using plastiser in the mixture

    Thanks in advance

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi,

      For roofing work, use 1 part cement to 3 parts sand, that would normally be builders sand, but ensure that at least 30% of this sand is sharp sand. This is a British Standard requirement, and even the NHBC quote this mix, though we rarely see it. Or use 50% builders sand and 50% sharp sand, even better, though workability will be reduced.
      Plasticiser is to increase workability, which is fine for mortar mixes used for brickwork, blockwork etc, but I can’t imagine you’d need it for roofing work, verge fillets, chimney flaunchings etc.

      Regards. Joe Malone

  6. Simon avatar
    Simon

    I’m currently having a loft conversion done and was a little surprised/ concerned to note some hairline cracks have already appeared in the gable end fillets.

    Is this normal? More to the point, should I be raising it as a concern with the builders before the scaffolding comes down?

    Thanks

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi Simon,

      Rather than raise alarm, I’d casually asked them what mortar mix was used for the verge fillets.
      As I’ve said, it should be a 3:1 sand and cement mix, with the sand containing a minimum of 30% sharp sand. If their answer doesn’t comply with this specification, then it’s likely that you’re seeing early signs of premature failure that will get progressively worse.

      Regards

      Joe

  7. Ben avatar
    Ben

    Hi Joe,

    After much searching, I have found it very difficult to find a step by step guide for re bedding verge tiles using cement and undercloack. Of the advice I have found, many people seem to have different opinions.

    My main questions are whether or not the mortar should be on top of the underlay as long as it doesn’t touch the battens, and what to do if bedding undercloak brings the verge tile higher than the other tiles?

    Some have said that you underlay half way over brickwork, battens end 100mm away from the brick edge, 50mm overhang of undercloak, verge clips on, bed tiles up to ridge.

    If you know of any guides that would be great! I am confident overall but am a perfectionist and tend to like to do everything by the book.

    Cheers

  8. Chris Jones avatar
    Chris Jones

    Would the recommendation of a 3:1 mortar mix with sand containing 30% sharp sand be the same where one is replacing cracked and loose mortar under a cementitious board that sits below modern slates, as opposed clay tiles?

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Yes it would Chris.

  9. Simon Rowland avatar
    Simon Rowland

    We have a similar problem with our cambrian? slate verges in a house that is only 14 years old. Would this be considered a latent defect and could we claim from the original developer/builder (we aren’t the original purchaser)? Thanks for any advice.

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi Simon,

      I think any action would be time barred now. You usually have 6 years from the date of practical completion, or 12 years, where the contract is signed as a deed.
      In your particular case, I’m not entirely sure whether contractual rights would have transferred across to you anyway, though this is a moot point, given the time frames involved.

      Just make sure that when you get them repaired, you ensure that the correct mortar mix is used; 3:1 sand and cement, ensuring the sand contains a minimum of 30% sharp sand. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where access costs, can be more than the repair work itself.

      Regards. Joe Malone

  10. Wayne Roberts avatar
    Wayne Roberts

    What mix should i be using for slate verges on a slate roof (listed building and verges are 3 inches deep

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Generally speaking, it’s a 3:1 sand and cement mix with the sand containing a minimum of 30% sharp sand. However, on a listed building, I’d be more inclined to use NHL 5 lime mortar.

      Also note that the verge tile should really be fully bedded on mortar, to the full width of the tile.

      Regards. Joe Malone

  11. Yvonne McDermott avatar
    Yvonne McDermott

    I am really bad damp on an external wall which is very open to wind and rain. I have noticed that there is gaps under my roof tiles where the mortar has fallen out. Could this be the cause of my problem???

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi Yvonne,

      Yes, possibly wind driven rain could be getting under the tile verges and into the wall cavity if it is cavity walled construction? Or you may have some debris in the wall cavity that is allowing moisture to transfer across the cavity. If solid walled, then this is unlikely to be the issue if you are seeing damp much lower down on the affected wall.

      Regards

      Joe Malone

  12. Andrew Rees avatar
    Andrew Rees

    Hi Joe, again we we have a similar problem with our Cambrian slate verges work completed 2008.
    Is there a simple solution to replace the composite sheet and re cement without taking roof tiles off?
    Thanks
    Andrew

    1. Joe Malone avatar
      Joe Malone

      Hi Andrew,

      If your cement verge boards are damaged then I can’t see how these can be changed without taking off the verge tiles. If the verge boards are fine and it’s just the cement verge fillets that are damaged then you could fit a plastic dry verge system.

      Regards

      Joe Malone

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